Really, really not doing well. Stress is overwhelming. Don't know what to do.

[Ru-bee]

Hey @Jlol hearing that this has been confusing. I have been able to see your reply and I appreciate your honesty. When we're talking about the community guidelines I think one is often forgotten which is to "Tell The Community What Youd Need" so that we can still promote discussions that support recovery and personal well-being, even on the tough days. So this means it's okay to be honest with what you're feeling (of course considering the guidelines around when to seek emergency help and limiting detailed descriptions), but when you are honest and posting about the tough days, it's important to tell the community what you need. 

We do genuinely want to know how you are, but we also need to always be considering the safety of the community which is why we have those guidelines.

[Jlol]

Hi @Ru-bee 

Yeah theres a lot of inconsistancies. EG in most of this thread I haven't said what I need from the community, just answered questions and told my story. Those replies didn't get deleted.

Also, I get that including "What I need from the community" might be a good thing to include in an initial post, but no necessarily replies to posts. Reading the guidelines, that's how I interpretted it. Otherwise every single post and reply on the forum would have this included.

I mean, I've replied to other people's posts comiserating with them and offering advice when I can but it wouldn't feel appropriate to include what I need from the comunity in someone else's story.

And if that answer was required of me in just that reply, then why wasn't I asked? You just asked "what's going on for you today?" not "what's going on for you today and what do you need from the community?".

Look, part of me thinks that, while I'm not officially diagnosed, I strongly suspect I have a degree of autism so I often find "grey areas" of rules hard to understand. And while we're at it arnt guidelines just that? Guidelines, not rules? When does a guide turn into an enforcable rule?

Another part of me suspects that you guys kind of just use that rule/guideline whenever you want to just remove something you don't like. Which, since you asked a question and I simply answered politely and honestly, isn't really fair on me. Again, it makes me think that you'd like me to lie about the state of my mental health which I'm just not onboard with.

So now I'm so confused. I feel like I have to sign off every post and reply with "I am safe, and I'd like X from the community". I already start my posts with "I'm not meaning to offend anyone" and censor out words like "s***ide" or use words like "unalive". 

So, yeah: I am safe, and what I'd like from the community is respect, clarity, and compassion.

[Ru-bee]

Hey @Jlol 

I agree with you, there is room for interpretation within the guidelines and I completely understand why this can be frustrating and confusing. I really appreciate you sharing how difficult working in the grey areas can be for you. Maybe we can work to find some more black and white understandings from this guideline?

How about: Let the community know what you need when...

- You are making the first post in a new thread

- You are expressing strongly negative emotions or experiences, such as thoughts of suicide, or wanting to die. 

Let me know if that's helpful at all

"Another part of me suspects that you guys kind of just use that rule/guideline whenever you want to just remove something you don't like. " - A lot of the work we do is in the grey so I understand how you could come to feel that we're applying the guidelines when we want to take down something we don't like. I would like to share that I do not personally like removing posts, it's a part of my job which is very difficult and I think that this experience is shared with my peers. I like to consult with my peers and, at times, with supervisors and managers to get oversight before taking action. The key thing that determines whether a post is removed is whether it is likely to be harmful or distressing to the community. Again, it's not always an easy decision and we do understand when members disagree.

I really respect your candor and honesty around these tough thoughts and emotions, and can understand that feeling as though you are being asked to lie, I would also feel uncomfortable with this in your position. If you're not safe, we don't want you to say that you are. If you feel as though there is truly nothing that can help on the forums in that moment, you can communicate that. This will mean that unfortunately your post can't go live, but it will let us know that you need support which is something that we will reach out to you to discuss.

I hope this does offer a bit more clarity on these points

[Jlol]

Hi @Ru-bee, yes that does help. But I would aslo suggest letting the poster know to add that before something is deleted and reminding them to type that when asking a question.
With the deleted post I was/am not really in the right headspace to remember some specific yet vague rule. And it hurts a lot to be honest and spill your guts then just have it deleted on a technicality.

You gotta understand too: I come at this from an angle of no longer wanting to sweep bad and messy mental-health issues under the rug anymore. I honestly do think that not talking about serious mental health is harmful and I think that rules like "duty of care" are designed to hide the problem even further at worst, or just protect an origanisation from liability at best. Neither of these are beneficial for the person wishing to discsuss their illness.

The fact is that s***ide rates are on the increase and its the leading cuase of death for people under 45. Not cancer, not car accidents, not drugs and alcohol.

Yet how many of us are aware of slip-slop-slap? How many of us know the consequences of speeding? How many of use see drug and alcohol warnings? Why do these things get to be discussed and have something done about them, but s***ide doesnt?

The way I see it is that by deleting comments that merely suggest the "big s" word, the organisation is complicit in squashing any conversations and public awareness which only makes the problem worse.

It's like being on a health forum that where you'r not allowed to discuss cancer. Or a drug and alcohol discussion that won't let you bring up the topic of the dangers of cigarettes. Why is it ok in this space to talk about anxiety or OCD or ADD but with s***ide you have dance around the topic and follow so many vague and subjective rules? 

[Ru-bee]

Hi @Jlol I'm glad that was helpful. Yes, I agree with this idea, and it is something that we can definitely work on with future posts. Often this might mean that a post is temporarily removed and we contact you via email to let you know and allow you to make any needed edits, and when these are done the post can go live once again. 

Again, I really appreciate your openness about the "messy" parts of mental health. It sounds like it's taken some real work to get there and be able to be so real about it. 

[Jlol]

Thanks @Ru-bee 

Haha honestly no. I'm just so tired and don't do fake anymore.

Regarding what I said does Sane support this?

[Ru-bee]

Regarding your points on suicide @Jlol?

I do believe that both you and SANE align on there needing to be more spaces where suicide can be discussed, and that the prevalence of suicide should be widely known and talked about. 

SANE is committed to providing spaces where we can talk about suicide, but the key difference between discussions of OCD or ADD and discussions of suicide is that the latter inherently comes with a greater level of risk.

It can be very challenging to find the line between maintaining community safety and having open and frank discussions about suicide. Ultimately, we are always going to need to err on the side of caution when there is risk involved, as we do operate under that duty of care that all mental health services legally need to adhere to.

Again, it's a really challenging topic, but we're always doing our best here to try to facilitate conversation while considering safety, our legal obligations, and the overall recovery focus that we have here at SANE.

[Jlol]

Thanks @Ru-bee

Could you tell me what the risk is?

And if Sane is in alignment with being able to talk about s***ide, then do you know where? Do you know anywhere you can discuss concerns about s***ide without risk of punishment (ie bieng "duty of cared" and locked up)? 
I'm not trying to be provocative here - these are genuine questions.

[Ru-bee]

@Jlol the most common risk we face is vulnerable members becoming distressed or triggered by certain discussions around suicide. There is also the risk of members not receiving adequate support for their needs - for example a member being in crisis. Then, of course, there is always the risk that when someone expresses suicidal ideation they may act on these thoughts, resulting in injury or death. Due to these risks we do have a guide to posting safely about suicide, I'm not sure if you've read through it before but it is quite comprehensive.

The best place to post about suicide is in the Managing Thoughts of Suicide and Self-harm space.

In terms of wondering about a space where you can have these discussions without the limitations of duty of care requirements... I'm honestly not sure. Given that I work in the mental health space all of my ideas are mental health services and would have the same restrictions and legal responsibilities that we do. 

[Jlol]

Thanks @Ru-bee 

Yes that is a good guide.

Would Sane be supportive of modifying duty of care rules to enable people to discuss this health issue?